SPS 182: Real & Raw Writing About Tough Experiences with Dave Hollis

Posted on Dec 3, 2022

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Chandler Bolt [00:00:02] Hey, Chandler Bolt here. And joining me today is Dave Hollis. He’s been on the podcast before. Maybe you remember last time we talked about his book: “Get Out of Your Own Way” and launching that in the middle of COVID and all that craziness and just a lot of really good reflections. And so, Dave, he’s a New York Times best selling author. He’s the host of the Rise Together podcast, and he’s keynote speaker, a life business coach. He’s been the CEO of Media Start up president of sales at Walt Disney Company. Maybe you’ve heard of it. He’s also the author of books that I’ve already mentioned. So Get Out of Your Own Way. That was the first one built through courage was the second one, and then got an upcoming kid’s book, which looks cool. It’s Here’s to Your Dreams. Dave, welcome back.

Dave Hollis [00:00:51] Hey, thank you for having me back, man. It’s so good to see you again.

Chandler Bolt [00:00:54] Yeah, right back at you. So why books like this seems like this is a big part of your life and brand and is continued to be a priority. Why books and how does it kind of fit in with what you’re doing?

Speaker 2 [00:01:06] It’s so interesting because I don’t know that I grew up thinking, you know what I need to do? I need to write books. What I did have a feeling for, whether it was calling or otherwise, was this draw to reporting. And there was something, whether it was like idolizing bizarrely, like my childhood hero was Dan Rather. That’s not a thing that people have as childhood heroes. But like I always thought, hey, maybe I can take some of my ability to speak or manipulate a storyteller or synthesize information and bring it to a medium like TV and and be a reporter or be a newscaster. And when I was in college, I found myself behind the desk at Pepperdine Local Public Access Channel and spent a little bit of time in school working inside of communications. But my career veered away from that for some length of time. And when I found myself leaving corporate for entrepreneurship and working more inside of a business that was trying to put tools in people’s hands, I was witness to the power of how storytelling and books were able to afford people an opportunity to think differently, challenge some of their own limiting beliefs, or open up their minds to the possibility of what could be in their future for maybe seeing some of their own selves and the stories of the people who were authoring books. And so, you know, I happened to also be married to someone at the time when I wrote that first book who obviously had had some success with publishing. But I knew that I was wildly different in my wiring and just kind of the way that I wasn’t being motivated, unlike her or intrinsically driven in ways that were so different. And I thought, man, I wonder if there are people who are somewhat like me that maybe don’t wake up on fire for the day, that don’t have the same kind of spark or optimism. And if I were to tell some of my stories and how I had to persevere through some of my own, whether it was programing from family of origin or the way that my brain just naturally thinks, maybe that would be a toolset, a gift for someone who find themselves relating a little bit more, maybe to me, than someone who is more kind of a unicorn, as it were, with just being naturally. And so that was where it started. And it’s kind of just continued as I think about like, well, hey, I guess never say never. But I don’t think I’m going to be a person who’s reporting in a conventional sense on a television, you know, at a television desk. But maybe I can write in a way that has me doing something of a different kind of reporting and sharing stories, sharing insights that have come from other great teachers that have influenced the way that I’m making progress in my own life, in the hopes that it affords people the chance to make progress on their own.

Chandler Bolt [00:03:48] Hmm. That’s great. And it feels like the first the first book was kind of a jumping off point or kind of kind of the foundation for launching more of your personal brand. And then the second you feel like the second one has kind of built on that is it went in a different direction. How has that kind of sequentially happened?

Dave Hollis [00:04:07] Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting because the first was very much that like take on man, I’m not motivated in the same way. I don’t have that same kind of drive. I don’t have. And I wanted to explain how I had to get out of my own way just because of some of my own tendencies where they were, whether they were ways that I let thinking get in my way or negative coping mechanisms get in my way. The second book was really about this journey of trying to understand kind of who I am and why I’m here. And it was written in a window of time where so much of my identity had been shaken up, that it was as much a kind of cathartic, real time run through of how I was also trying to process “Where am I? Like a real honest self diagnostic of kind of where I am, what’s worked and hasn’t, where do I feel called and don’t? What are my values? Is what I stand for. But then beyond that, where am I going?” And, you know, for people who are unfamiliar with my story, I was married. I was, you know, then divorced and wrote a book not terribly long in the aftermath of this primary pillar of my identity as husband to her going away. And we’d worked together. And so, professionally speaking, this person that I had been and helping grow a company also went away. And so I found myself in so many respects looking at a blank piece of paper, trying now to architect what this future of mine was going to look like when it certainly was going to look like anything I had previously thought that it might. And the book is, in a lot of ways, my journey of trying to build a plan and confront my own fears and to really understand what it was going to take for me to live in integrity on an everyday basis, to create a reality that I was now forecasting in real time.

Chandler Bolt [00:05:58] Mm hmm. That’s really interesting. Thanks for sharing that. And it’s I, I was just I just did a podcast interview earlier today. So I guess contextually, when these will come out next to each other with Mary Lawless Lee. And she was talking we were talking about a book is therapy and a lot of ways a book writing a book. And especially if you’re writing about personal life experiences, I call it free therapy. Oh, yeah. You’re crystallizing your thoughts into text, which that when it’s not around, something that’s real, raw and painful is hard enough. And she talked about what I thought was really interesting. I never heard before was she was like she started going through therapy alongside the book and I was like, okay, were you were you asking about topics that you were writing about or was it just natural? Like, how did that happen? And then she also talked about her personal life experience. I’ve seen I think it was she wrote it ten or 12 years after her divorce and reflecting back from that standpoint. So did you do any of those similar things? Like were you going through therapy alongside this? And then are you glad that you wrote the book immediately after that experience? Do you think it would have been better later? What’s your take on all that? Yeah.

Dave Hollis [00:07:10] Oh, man, I’ve given so much thought to this. Number one, I’m always going to therapy because I’m always working through something. I’ve been going to therapy for years. I love therapy. I will be an advocate always and forever for people sitting with somebody who can help them process what they’re thinking and feeling. I actually started a kind of therapy in the immediate aftermath of divorce called Internal Family Systems, which I actually write about in the book, trying to really understand what the individual parts of me are and what roles they believe themselves to be playing in a way that allowed me as self to separate as me from that. So like I could be anxious, but I’m not a I’m not my anxiety. I’m the witness to this anxiety. I can be sad, but I’m not in myself a sad person. I am just now witness to the sadness. And part of what I talk about in the book and part of what was happening in therapy was me as again something of an investigative reporter trying to understand a little bit better what role that anxiety or that sadness or that grief or that whatever was trying to play. Because each of these parts believed that they were doing something for me, even if they didn’t feel good. When they were presenting the question, though, of, you know, how I’m so glad that I wrote the book when I did in that it was for me something unbelievably therapeutic to try and take what I mean, I have journals with thousands and thousands of more words and more thoughts. And this was, you know, a small subset of what I was ultimately kind of processing, working through and writing in the window that I was putting the book together. But I do I’m self-aware enough to really appreciate that, man. I wrote about some things that as I look back at them now, I still man, I think it’s such a great resource. I am so proud of the work and I also think that I didn’t yet fully appreciate the totality of the lesson that I was being taught as I was sharing it with the reader. And so as I think about what I’ll inevitably write at some point in the future, and I think some of what will be written will be ha. Dave in 2021. Dave in 2020, he didn’t yet understand how all these dots connected. You know, he had a glimpse of a picture and was processing that portion of the picture in ways that you as a reader might in fact have been processing also. But time has provided just unbelievable perspective on these things and the nuances that come in time have revealed. Yeah, there are certainly some things that I wish I would have been able to tell an even fuller picture. I would have been able to provide some even greater resources or depth of what it means. Another six months. Another 18 months away. From what for me was the biggest hardship that I’ve ever processed in my life. And so I can hold at the same time that I’m super proud of the work and think it’s a great resource. And the thing that I write next will be unbelievably better for even additional time and a lot more sitting in a therapist’s office understanding so much more about myself as I’ve had, again, like the benefit of time, but also the benefit of a lot of conversation, a lot of tools, a lot of teachers, a lot of other people coming around me helping me see things that just that early into that dark forest, I wasn’t able to see the totality of what it was that I was walking into.

Chandler Bolt [00:10:42] That’s great. That’s really cool. And I was just looking at episode, so this will be the week after. So guys come back next week, maybe. Lastly, we’ll talk about that because she was saying it was almost like reprocessing the whole event 12 years later. And that’s what’s interesting, I think about what you’re saying is that that’s a beautiful thing about life and learning is if you’re a lifelong learner, you will continue to learn things in your perspective will shift. And I think it’s almost like when you read a book and and then you read it again with a new context and then you learn something totally different. I’ve never thought about that the other way. As the author of, I wrote the book with that context, and then five years later, if I were to go back and write that book, I would maybe write something differently based on what I know now.

Dave Hollis [00:11:29] Yeah, I would say this though. I mean, the one thing I would say I couldn’t write the book now the way that it was written. Like I, I was tapped into and had proximity to so much raw feeling that afforded me an ability to, whether it was cathartic or otherwise, put it on paper in a way that those words wouldn’t come out today in the same way. I have created so much peace and acceptance and and closure on some of what was like really just new. But its newness was forcing a real investigative a real kind of like an autopsy is the wrong word. But like I wanted to understand why I was thinking the way that I was thinking and why I was doing the things I was doing and what it was going to mean to have to, in the absence of being who I was, figure out who I am and I have a better sense of self today than I did then. And in the absence of being as lost as I was, I don’t know that I would have been able to kind of tap into as much of what was tapped into then. So it’s interesting because, you know, like the thing I’d write now, it’s just so different than what this was. And also talking about courage, the time you’re going to need it most is when it feels the most raw, when it feels it’s new and different and scary. And it’s part of why I think, man, I’m glad. I’m glad that I wrote it as like in that window because I was writing it as much to myself as I was writing it to anyone who might read it.

Chandler Bolt [00:13:03] Mm. That’s great. That’s really great. Let’s talk about kind of the large components of these, these two different books. So I guess switching gears completely. And so last time, last time we talked about I was just looking at my notes is we talked about how you had to cancel the book tour for the first book during COVID. Pivoted kind of that whole experience we talked about. I wish you would have written the book sooner. We talked about all of the ways that the book was feeding into the business that you’re a part of at the time, kind of all those things. So. What did you learn from the first book? The second book, and how did what did you do differently marketing that second book? And maybe what were the two or three things that sold the most copies?

Dave Hollis [00:13:53] Well, I mean, there are so many things that were different between release one and released two. The biggest thing that was different is that in the in the window leading into the release of the first book, there was such kinetic energy happening inside the company with the success of the live events and the speaking and the podcasts. And there was a TV program and a line at a couple of different retailers. I mean, there was just a lot of great energy that the company being supportive of the launch of a book and the way that each of those individual businesses could help support, you know, drawing attention to the book, man. It just it created an environment unlike anything any first time author could ever hope for. And so even in the absence of not having a tour, which I was so excited about, there were six deaths. And it was, you know, in some ways a reflection of proximity to my own life, in some ways a reflection of some lightning in the bottle. Things were happening at the company. And man, I was such a grateful recipient of all of the good that came from it. And also all of the good that came from it was part of why the launch of the second book for me was really hard because I was, you know, in 2020 I was stepping away from the business to start really trying to do this work as a as a personality. That sounds like such a weird thing to say, but as an author or as a coach, rather than, you know, kind of an executive that was helping lead a team and it was jarring because I didn’t have a ton of experience inside of this world and was for the first time having to figure out how to do this new kind of work. Well, in the aftermath of my marriage coming to an end, which right this book came out in March of 2020. We had a conversation about divorce at the end of May. So it was a very short window. The time between end of marriage and launch of second book had me trying to maintain some of my getting my feet under me as an author, as a speaker, as a person who was doing this work. But now I was doing it outside of this company that had helped build and as a person who was not a part of a relationship with another person who did work with me for years and years with a time separate from being the mother of my kids. And as much as I think in the beginning of 2020, there were some questions for me of kind of where do I fit in the mix of what we do where, you know, my wife was the absolute 100% number one part of what we had put out as a part of the this company. And I didn’t know, you know, I’d like to do this work. I feel called to it. I think there’s a place for it. But I think I still had some questions as to kind of where I fit inside of the relationship and even inside the company. And now that I was outside of it, I didn’t realize that some of that doubt or those questions really existed until we got to the launch of that second book. When I didn’t have the benefit of the company supporting it, I didn’t have the things that had previously made that first launch go off with as few hitches as as it did. And so the questions that my kind of negative self-talk or the insecurity that came in, the absence of, you know, being married or those feelings of rejection at the end of a marriage, I started to wonder if I deserved to even be in the space or if the success of that first one was in some ways less a reflection of my good work and more a reflection of the environment in which it was released. And so as much as we man, I pushed as hard as I could, I ended up pushing too hard. I in the absence of there being an appetite for a tour, in the absence of having some of those kind of bigger platforms that had brought me onto a morning show like a Good Morning America in that first go around, that insecurity, that fear, that worry that I was going to be kind of found out for not being good. It had me really try and push as hard as I could in creating a tour out of thin air where five days in five cities. Here I am trying to create something. And I, you know, at just after the launch, I just I’d run myself completely ragged and it caught up to me. And so there was something, something in the mix of probably not having fully processed all the things in divorce, probably not having processed all of the other feelings of what it would mean to try and do something like this and not have it compared. To that first release because of so many the conditions being different and I couldn’t help myself still compared myself to that first release. And I just I really struggled with the results of the release in a way that took so much of my pride for the work and the way that it was being received by the readers of the work, and in some ways ruined it, to be honest.

Chandler Bolt [00:19:15] Yeah, it’s interesting because I had I had similar but similar but I guess opposite experiences with my first two books. And then like the first one, I had no expectations and it and it wildly exceeded expectations and it was this euphoric thing. And then the second one I had kind of similar what you say is like crazy high expectations. And then we were way below those expectations and it was miserable. And it’s so it’s like the big takeaway for me since then has been how expectations around a launch for an author can be one of the most harmful or just life killing. Things like, It’s great to have you feel like you’re a guy that sets goals. I’m a guy that sets goals. It’s like I love having goals around things and that’s just how I’m wired. Yeah, same time having like the higher the expectation, the more likely that you are, the more likely that you will not enjoy the process and the more likely that it can come to a point where you’re like, Man, I just remember after that it was like, Gosh, that’s so hard. Yeah, I don’t really do that for a while. And that kind of tarnishes the intent of why you were doing it in the first place.

Dave Hollis [00:20:33] Yeah, I mean, this’ll sound maybe ridiculous, but I’m trying to admit it. What I what I can see that I couldn’t at the time is that there were I was putting the number of units sold or making a list as the way that I might be affirmed as being worthy of doing the work, which is ridiculous and in some ways was a byproduct of having had a ridiculous amount of very early success that really kind of saturated and ruined a little bit of my own expectation meter. But in the aftermath of a divorce that frankly, you know, kind of came as a surprise, not even kind of it came as a surprise to me. It wasn’t a thing that we’ve been talking about. I was smarting from what was more or less rejection. And because we work together and that first book had come out inside of a company that we built. Somehow, somewhere inside of my brain, this little scared boy thought, you know what? If I can at least sell a certain number of books, I can show people that I’m worthy in a way that would maybe change the way that they would have seen me being rejected in this marriage, which is ridic. It’s such a ridiculous thing because the headline is like the book ended up doing well. It wasn’t, you know, a disappointment on the publisher side. It was it did fine. It just didn’t do as well as that first release. And for whatever reason, my insecurity, my fear, my ego, my whatever took it and ruined it by thinking if I just work hard enough, I can alone engineer the same kind of success that I experienced when I was still married and a lightning in a bottle situation with a company of 60 people supporting a book. And it was a ridiculous fool’s errand kind of thing. And I worked myself into this, you know, sad, exhausted, embarrassing state, trying to push a rock up a hill that was never meant to go there.

Chandler Bolt [00:22:34] Mm hmm. Or that, you know, you successfully push it up a really great hill and that, you know, it’s like the perspective of that. Like, you push it up a really great hill. But if you viewed the hill of your previous book, Light, with all the context that you said, it then feels like you didn’t get it all the way up the hill. Yeah. Which is go back. It goes back to the expectations thing. That’s really powerful, man. Thanks for sharing that. Of course, I’d love to hear about the upcoming children’s book. So totally different. And let’s see. So we’ve got. Here’s to your dreams. What what’s what’s kind of the thought, our intention behind that? Why a children’s book? Where does this fit in with what you’re doing?

Dave Hollis [00:23:23] Yeah. So my daughter and I know I have this thing that we do called tea time. We turn it into a little fun video series where the conceit was, Hey, I’m, you know, working in a world where people are buying personal development books because they need to unlearn things that the world has taught them. Is there some possibility that I could take some of these themes, condense them down and teacher some capital T truths when she is three, four and five years old, such that before the world teaches her that she shouldn’t dream too big or she can’t do a certain thing, but she actually can. And so we start having fun with this online video series, and my publisher and I had a conversation like, You know what? This would make a great book. I’m like, Yes, I am here for this. Let’s go. So here’s to your dreams is just this idea of how could you potentially take a fantastical adventure where we started a tea table and do some fun storytelling about what it means to believe in yourself, chase your dreams in this. Noah has this big dream of wanting to captain a ship and realizes as soon as we start on the adventure that can’t find someone to build it, we got to do it ourselves. We don’t know how to do it. We try to do it anyway and as we do and fail, but then learn from our failures, we find our way out at sea. Then it rains and conditions don’t go as we like. We have to adapt and pivot. And as we do, we realized we didn’t think ourselves qualified for the dream. But of course we always had everything inside of us to achieve it. And so it’s hoping to teach, you know, I’ll call it 48 year old, 4 to 8 year old kids that they deserve to dream, that they are inevitably going to fail at things when they do. But if they can persevere and keep pushing through, they’re going to find themselves standing with that achieve dream and a renewed, bigger sense of self. And so I got the book right here. I mean, look at this, baby. It’s No one. I have an hour tea time that comes out. Was so excited. I know.

Chandler Bolt [00:25:31] You said it comes out November.

Dave Hollis [00:25:33] November.

Chandler Bolt [00:25:34] November 8th. Awesome. So the book comes out November 8th, I think. So we have we have a whole children’s book school where we help people create children’s books. And I think a lot of the one of the biggest. One of the hardest things. And it depends on the age range that you’re writing for, right. That we see a lot of our authors struggle with is how do you tell that story in 750 words or in whatever that word count is, you remember the word count and any tips that you like. How did you do that? Like, how did you distill it down and have a powerful message but in a bite sized package?

Dave Hollis [00:26:17] Well, I mean, I don’t know that this is the way you do it. This is the first time I’ve ever tried it, but I laid it out. So this is just the way my brain works. I laid it out because there I want to say there’s 24 panels and I laid it out and identified upfront some of the kind of themes that I was hoping might come through in the book. So first you’ve got a dream, then you’ve got well know. First you’ve got to try a bunch of different things. And so you start with curiosity. Curiosity then sparks what you should actually dream for. So I curiosity on one page and then, all right, well, how could we get curiosity to come through? And then it was dreaming. All right, how are you going to cast your dream? And then it was doubt, because inevitably a dreamer dreams a big dream. And then they start to second guess if they are worthy of that dream, and then it’s, you know, some kind of affirmation. And so I just identify like, what is the thing that you’re trying to accomplish in either that single or double full page? And then once it was all kind of laid out and it’s I mean, there were some there were certain things that I, you know, oh, it would be great to also get this in there. Like, No, you don’t have that many words. You don’t have that many pages. You kind of pick the things that you ultimately think you can fit in. And then it was about telling a quick story, you know, you know, you only got so many words. This happens to rhyme. So you got to try and find it, find a way to do it in rhyme, fashion. But I just I’m I loved the way that it came out and the pride that my five year old has and the fact that this book that we’ve been working on, the series that we’ve been doing, and it’s one of these things that’s just been a rad memory maker and is going to be a part of our story forever. So that’s cool.

Chandler Bolt [00:27:54] That’s really cool. A really cool thing to do with your kids and just some serious street cred. I mean, when she goes to school, this book, there’s a book I help me. I’m in the I am in this book. That’s right. That is me. That’s so cool. How switching gears to the marketing of this book, how does how has the marketing look different? How has it been a similar playbook of things to market and launch this book? Has it been totally different? What’s that look like?

Dave Hollis [00:28:24] Totally different, yeah. Now, I mean, this one, I mean, it’s maybe rarer that there is something that we can pull from in the online video series. But taking some of the fun clips that we’ve had for the last three years of these, every once in a while, episodes of us talking about dreams and perseverance or whatever it might end up being, that’s part of it. But this is a conversation with parents of what they can in reading this book to their kids, hope that their kids might take away from it. And so helping them understand, oh, yeah, this is you’re going to learn about chasing your dreams. You’re going to learn about perseverance, you’re going to learn about reframing failure. You’re going to learn about believing in yourself. But then it’s also for us, creating a fun set of tools that people can take as they buy the book with, you know, Noah’s tips on how to have the great tea time and an activity guide that they can jump in and, you know, do with their with their kiddo. There’s some affirmation cards so that if you want to help also instilling some capital truth in your own kid but they are these great qualities that you hope for them to aspire to. So it’s been a little bit of a mix, a little bit of like let’s remind you of how much those of you who’ve seen the series loved the series. Here’s a little bit of the intended benefit that you as a parent might have in getting this for your kiddo. And then here’s some fun stuff that you just get for free for buying the darn book that you can take and have some fun with your kid. That also hopefully helps them achieve a little bit more in themselves and helps them become a little bit more of a dreamer.

Chandler Bolt [00:29:55] That’s cool. I think one of the unique things about kids books is that you’ve got two audiences, right? It’s How do you write a book that parents would be proud to buy and kids will love to read? And so you’re marketing to both the parent and and the child’s at or to like with things like your podcast and stuff like that. Are you leaning into this on there or are you going in and talking to the parents? Are you doing something totally different? Like, I’m just trying to think of how this would play out with all the different kind of assets or mechanisms that you have to market. Yeah. Or your platform. I’m going to have I’m.

Dave Hollis [00:30:33] Going to have Noah as a guest on the podcast. The book comes out that will.

Chandler Bolt [00:30:38] Drive you home.

Dave Hollis [00:30:39] We’ll have some fun that’s going to be a little bit more just us you for now because I’ve she says whatever she says whatever comes to mind. Which is part of what is amazing and beautiful both in the series and in real life. But, you know, like I’ve made mention a handful of times of the fact that it’s coming, but I’m also like. I’m proud of the work. And I’m also this is one of those like lessons in managed expectations. I am like I am going to be. I am so excited about it. And I’m also like releasing this in a way that is a complete departure from the way that I held so tightly to the release of the last book and both through courage. So I’m going to give it everything I got and I’m also going to let it go.

Chandler Bolt [00:31:23] Good for you. And that’s awesome. Well, Dave, it’s been great. What would be kind of your your parting piece of advice for the day from how many years ago before you wrote your first book and all the other dates that are out there who are thinking about writing their first book?

Dave Hollis [00:31:39] It’s so crazy. I, I just happened to see this clip. I put it up as a throwback Thursday. I don’t even know if that’s a thing anymore, but I found a clip of me seeing this tattoo that is on my arm, which is a John Shedd quote that I use it go through courage. It says, a ship in harbor is safe, but that’s not what ships are built for. I got it. As I was leaving corporate after a long career at Disney to start in entrepreneurship, I got at it as this reminder that, hey, you were built to be out in this rocky water, choppy water, not to be tied to some dock of your comfort zone. And and it’s scary like it’s scary to write a book. It’s scary to, like, put your words out for the world to believe in tow, to read them. But you have to believe at a certain point that you are built for it. And so whether it’s, you know, writing your first children’s book, you know, just your dreams, guess what? It’s going to be scary when you choose to try and put your, you know, your your your own imagination on page. If you decide to write a nonfiction book, it’s going to be scary. But I hope that you believe that, like the quote says, that you were built for it and that you can push outside of something that feels comfortable into something that, even though it scares you, is going to have you delivering some of why you’re here to the people who likely need to hear it and read it most.

Chandler Bolt [00:33:01] Mhm. That’s great man. Well hey guys, the book Here’s to Your Dreams Out November 8th. Check it out. Day working people go to buy the book or to find out more about you and what you’re up to.

Dave Hollis [00:33:15] You can head to here to dreamstime.com all the info on the book, where to buy it all the pre sell bonuses, all the post-sale bonuses. If you’re listening to this after release, they’re all Well, I’ll be there. And I don’t know, I spend some time on Instagram, Mr. Dave Hollis so come on back. Say hi.

Chandler Bolt [00:33:34] Cool. Well, here’s to your dreams. Dot com. That’s the name of the book. Here’s Your Dreams. A tea time with Noah Buck. Check it out. It looks awesome, Dave. Appreciate you.

Dave Hollis [00:33:45] Chandler. I appreciate you, too, but I’ll see you when I’m back in Austin.

Chandler Bolt [00:33:48] Yes, sir.

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Leo Oliveira

What is Self-Publishing School?

We help you save time, money, and headaches through the book, writing, marketing, and publishing process by giving you the proven, step-by-step process and accountability to publish successfully. All while allowing you to maintain control of your book–and its royalties.
Learn to publish a book to grow your impact, income, or business!

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